Maybe its just my ignornace of the game... - Guild Wars Forums

nitrixx · Apr 27, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Is Guild Wars not really intended to be a typical "high fantasy" game of item acquisition and exploration but rather a game of player versus player interaction? I have read a lot on the website (I even went ahead and pre-ordered at ebgames just from the movies I watched) but the information is relatively vague and limited. I realize the game is in no way meant to be an Everquest or WoW but is it all intended to be a game of item acquiring, exploration, and questing or simply battling with various other guilds? I suppose I may have fun even if it turns out to be only a 3d inspired pvp battle version of what amounts to Dune2/C&C/Warcraft/Starcraft but I was hoping for an epic sized world and exploration on par with traditional high fantasy. So far i'm getting mixed ideas as I read posts and faqs about this game. In some ways it seems to have hints of traditional high fantasy questing games and in other ways it seems to be a 3d inspired version of an RTS game.

The one thing that really stands out to me so far (and I must admit is a little disappointing) is the level 20 cap. In fact if appears they even allow you to start out at level 20 if you only wish to PvP. This leads me to think the game is more about player combat than questing and exploring.

Oh well, I suppose I'll just have to check it out in a few hours. Hey, at least if it's not any good it only cost the $5 deposit at ebgames and I don't have to buy the retail copy. I wonder if they did that by design? Or was it a mistake. It's kind of like getting to "rent" the game, haha.

cleric · Apr 27, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

i think its a good mixture of both. THere is numerous missions youcan do and i spent most of my time during the BWE doing that. As far as the cap at 20 that makes no diff to me because there is alwasy a cap somewhere. The game is vast enough where you could mission a lot but also it does have guild vs guild fighting

Darkmane · Apr 27, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

The game really is unlike any game that I know. Its simply an injustice to the game to say that it compares to anything, because it doesnt. You will love it I am sure. The game has aspects of PvP and PvE. And enough of both for all.

Lord Feriluce · Apr 27, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29

It's a combination of both exploration/item acquisition and player versus player combat. You can do one of them, or both. To be good in pvp, you need player skill and skills for your character. Unless you want to stick with the pre-made builds you have to go out into the world an explore to acquire all the skills/armor and decent weapons for your pvp characters.

I wouldn't be worried about the level cap at all. Think of levels 1-10 as the tutorial, 11-19 as getting by the novice steps of the game, and 20 just starting the main gaming experience (both pve and pvp)

SSE4 · Apr 27, 2005, 04:31 AM // 04:31

The level 20 PvP thing was for Beta Weekend Events only.

This game contains a lot of elements, and although it's true that the PvP/GvG element is undoubtedly strong, the game contains a lot of "adventuring" and "questing" for the traditional player. It's also important to understand that this game casts off most of the need for level climbing. To some players this may hurt the translation of time = reward. But really, your reward isn't in the levels you gain.

Guild Wars has plenty of PvE and PvP enjoyment. One could say that it's better in regards to PvP most, but I think for the right player (Myself included) it has more than enough adventuring to keep you interested.

Lord Feriluce · Apr 27, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Not so, SSE4, you can start a level 20 pvp character even in retail. Though you need to acquire skills and other items with a rp character before you can use them with a pvp only.

Zodiakos · Apr 27, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43

From what I've seen so far, you really have to put aside those genre-generalizations, because this game really belongs to an fairly new paradigm. Many of it's features are borrowed from several different genres, with a general 'high fantasy' setting. My personal opinion is that, if this works out, you are going to start seeing many more games made in this format versus the old clunky 'massive server farm' format of the old MMORPG.

Basically, you can do either. You can play the game without ever engaging in PvP (except for a brief encounter in the beginning), or you can play completely PvP if you want - and you can do so at any time, without being 'locked in' to any kind of style of play. To truly appreciate how different this game is from the current crop of MMORPGs (which Guild Wars claims NOT to be), you have to examine and understand the rationale behind many of the 'features' of those MMORPGs.

I'll give you an example, because you pointed it out - the level 20 cap. In a traditional MMORPG, you start at level 1, and slowly grind your way up the ladder to get to level 100 (or 50, or 255, or whatever the game is - the theory is the same). Why? So that you can access that new cool area. Or equip that shiny sword you found. Or access that cool new area to kill some monster so you can find that new shiny sword. The underlying theory is the same - repetitive action so you can get over that next hill, so you can see new stuff. And of course, so you will continue playing for months on end, earning a server administrator's paycheck.

When you think about it, however, you realize that it's all just a big timesink. Between those 'interesting' bits that you are working so hard to get to, there's a lot of useless monster killing and go-fetch quests that amount to nothing more than space filler. A LOT of space filler. In fact, probably months worth. In a typical MMORPG, there are many quests you can do, and areas you can see, but they are restricted arbitrarily by what 'level' you are. Basically, what Guild Wars has done away with is the pointless filler space, allowing you to see all those cool things without all that wasted time - basically, you get the fun stuff. You still get the challenge, because everything can be balanced for a single character level - 20 (basically, levels 1-20 are all 'tutorial' missions to get you up to speed). However, you get to do ALL the quests at any time. You can go to all the different areas, after you find them. Exploration actually has meaning, as opposed to a traditional MMORPG where a different area, besides nifty new creature models (sometimes), is just another monster killing ground for higher level players. It's the same amount of content as those games - but with a completely different psychological impact. Rather than pointlessly grinding away for hours, your actions seem to have MEANING because you are doing them for your own reasons.

I'm almost positive that they hired a psychologist or two on the team to create guild wars, or perhaps these things were so obvious that it's just amazing no other company has tried it until now. Regardless, it will be interesting to see Guild Wars - and its successors - and see how well they fare as the next generation of the online interactive roleplaying game.

SSE4 · Apr 27, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Feriluce

Not so, SSE4, you can start a level 20 pvp character even in retail. Though you need to acquire skills and other items with a rp character before you can use them with a pvp only.

Really? That's and interesting feature. Thanks for pointing that out for me.

Darkmane · Apr 27, 2005, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiakos

From what I've seen so far, you really have to put aside those genre-generalizations, because this game really belongs to an fairly new paradigm. Many of it's features are borrowed from several different genres, with a general 'high fantasy' setting. My personal opinion is that, if this works out, you are going to start seeing many more games made in this format versus the old clunky 'massive server farm' format of the old MMORPG.

etc.. etc.. edited for space, please scroll up and read the entire post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiakos

I'm almost positive that they hired a psychologist or two on the team to create guild wars, or perhaps these things were so obvious that it's just amazing no other company has tried it until now. Regardless, it will be interesting to see Guild Wars - and its successors - and see how well they fare as the next generation of the online interactive roleplaying game.

Great post well said, welcome to the forums town dweller !

Lord Feriluce · Apr 27, 2005, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSE4

Really? That's and interesting feature. Thanks for pointing that out for me.

You're welcome. It's an interesting design feature, though some people who are into GW solely for pvp don't like that they have to go through the pve part of the game to get skills and equipment. Oh well.

nitrixx · Apr 27, 2005, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Feriluce

I wouldn't be worried about the level cap at all. Think of levels 1-10 as the tutorial, 11-19 as getting by the novice steps of the game, and 20 just starting the main gaming experience (both pve and pvp)

Ah, I see. I was very curious what the game would be like if there are only 20 levels that zoom by so fast (from a pve standpoint). Obviously the PvP portion wouldn't change much. PvP isn't really about character building (traditionally) and therefore anyone interested in the game for that reason would more than likely care less if there were 1 level or 70 levels. They would simply want whatever skills put them on par with the playing field. I was more curious about how the level 20 cap will impact players that want to experience the game for its PvE value. Hopefully as you stated there is enough pve element to the game that it continues to be enjoyable from that standpoint even upon reaching level 20. Anyone who is familiar with traditional high fantasy mmo's knows that the game usually becomes stale and boring once you hit the level cap (and this is probably why we have levels like 50 and 60 and 70 in most popular mmo's today).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiakos

I'll give you an example, because you pointed it out - the level 20 cap. In a traditional MMORPG, you start at level 1, and slowly grind your way up the ladder to get to level 100 (or 50, or 255, or whatever the game is - the theory is the same). Why? So that you can access that new cool area. Or equip that shiny sword you found. Or access that cool new area to kill some monster so you can find that new shiny sword. The underlying theory is the same - repetitive action so you can get over that next hill, so you can see new stuff. And of course, so you will continue playing for months on end, earning a server administrator's paycheck.

I very much agree with that assessment but, again, I reiterate my concern for the interest that can be maintained if the character building process (or item acquisition and exploration) were essentially over at lvl 20. What draws many people to RPG's (as a general rule) are the vast number of unknowns (items, area exploration, creatures, skills, and so on). Most of this value is tied to a long character building process based on levels and that is my main concern for this game and fans of PvE style play. From what I've gathered in this thread there will still be plenty to keep busy. It sounds like an interesting concept. We'll have to see how it works out. Thank you for the input.

butcherboy · Apr 27, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Fundamentally speaking the game does begin at level 20, as stated but I saw no mention of skills. Despite not leveling stat wise (Attributes) past level 20, your character can gain new skills and skill points by fighting PvE and skill points from fighting PvP. Some quests reward characters with new skills in addition or supposition of shiny new killing/saving toys. Of course, this is based on what I've read as I won't be able to do squat with the game until tonight after I finish my 2nd job.

Rizzen Khalazar · Apr 27, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Try out the game before judging it. The game is definately different, and you also must remember that it will not appeal to everyone.

Auntie I · Apr 27, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

In my experience playing the betas, you will hit level 20 before you finish all of the major missions/quests. Trust me they don't get any easier just because you've hit the magical 2 0. I think the best way to look at it is that the level cap really hasn't got a large impact on the PvE. Except in the beginning when that 20 extra health/mana really does mean a big boost of course.

Apr 27, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24	#1
nitrixx Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Apr 2005	Maybe its just my ignornace of the game... Is Guild Wars not really intended to be a typical "high fantasy" game of item acquisition and exploration but rather a game of player versus player interaction? I have read a lot on the website (I even went ahead and pre-ordered at ebgames just from the movies I watched) but the information is relatively vague and limited. I realize the game is in no way meant to be an Everquest or WoW but is it all intended to be a game of item acquiring, exploration, and questing or simply battling with various other guilds? I suppose I may have fun even if it turns out to be only a 3d inspired pvp battle version of what amounts to Dune2/C&C/Warcraft/Starcraft but I was hoping for an epic sized world and exploration on par with traditional high fantasy. So far i'm getting mixed ideas as I read posts and faqs about this game. In some ways it seems to have hints of traditional high fantasy questing games and in other ways it seems to be a 3d inspired version of an RTS game. The one thing that really stands out to me so far (and I must admit is a little disappointing) is the level 20 cap. In fact if appears they even allow you to start out at level 20 if you only wish to PvP. This leads me to think the game is more about player combat than questing and exploring. Oh well, I suppose I'll just have to check it out in a few hours. Hey, at least if it's not any good it only cost the $5 deposit at ebgames and I don't have to buy the retail copy. I wonder if they did that by design? Or was it a mistake. It's kind of like getting to "rent" the game, haha.

Apr 27, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27	#2
cleric Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Apr 2005	i think its a good mixture of both. THere is numerous missions youcan do and i spent most of my time during the BWE doing that. As far as the cap at 20 that makes no diff to me because there is alwasy a cap somewhere. The game is vast enough where you could mission a lot but also it does have guild vs guild fighting

Apr 27, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27	#3
Darkmane Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Feb 2005	The game really is unlike any game that I know. Its simply an injustice to the game to say that it compares to anything, because it doesnt. You will love it I am sure. The game has aspects of PvP and PvE. And enough of both for all.

Apr 27, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29	#4
Lord Feriluce Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Shelton, WA	It's a combination of both exploration/item acquisition and player versus player combat. You can do one of them, or both. To be good in pvp, you need player skill and skills for your character. Unless you want to stick with the pre-made builds you have to go out into the world an explore to acquire all the skills/armor and decent weapons for your pvp characters. I wouldn't be worried about the level cap at all. Think of levels 1-10 as the tutorial, 11-19 as getting by the novice steps of the game, and 20 just starting the main gaming experience (both pve and pvp)

Apr 27, 2005, 04:31 AM // 04:31	#5
SSE4 Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Apr 2005	The level 20 PvP thing was for Beta Weekend Events only. This game contains a lot of elements, and although it's true that the PvP/GvG element is undoubtedly strong, the game contains a lot of "adventuring" and "questing" for the traditional player. It's also important to understand that this game casts off most of the need for level climbing. To some players this may hurt the translation of time = reward. But really, your reward isn't in the levels you gain. Guild Wars has plenty of PvE and PvP enjoyment. One could say that it's better in regards to PvP most, but I think for the right player (Myself included) it has more than enough adventuring to keep you interested.

Apr 27, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33	#6
Lord Feriluce Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Shelton, WA	Not so, SSE4, you can start a level 20 pvp character even in retail. Though you need to acquire skills and other items with a rp character before you can use them with a pvp only.

Apr 27, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43	#7
Zodiakos Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2005	From what I've seen so far, you really have to put aside those genre-generalizations, because this game really belongs to an fairly new paradigm. Many of it's features are borrowed from several different genres, with a general 'high fantasy' setting. My personal opinion is that, if this works out, you are going to start seeing many more games made in this format versus the old clunky 'massive server farm' format of the old MMORPG. Basically, you can do either. You can play the game without ever engaging in PvP (except for a brief encounter in the beginning), or you can play completely PvP if you want - and you can do so at any time, without being 'locked in' to any kind of style of play. To truly appreciate how different this game is from the current crop of MMORPGs (which Guild Wars claims NOT to be), you have to examine and understand the rationale behind many of the 'features' of those MMORPGs. I'll give you an example, because you pointed it out - the level 20 cap. In a traditional MMORPG, you start at level 1, and slowly grind your way up the ladder to get to level 100 (or 50, or 255, or whatever the game is - the theory is the same). Why? So that you can access that new cool area. Or equip that shiny sword you found. Or access that cool new area to kill some monster so you can find that new shiny sword. The underlying theory is the same - repetitive action so you can get over that next hill, so you can see new stuff. And of course, so you will continue playing for months on end, earning a server administrator's paycheck. When you think about it, however, you realize that it's all just a big timesink. Between those 'interesting' bits that you are working so hard to get to, there's a lot of useless monster killing and go-fetch quests that amount to nothing more than space filler. A LOT of space filler. In fact, probably months worth. In a typical MMORPG, there are many quests you can do, and areas you can see, but they are restricted arbitrarily by what 'level' you are. Basically, what Guild Wars has done away with is the pointless filler space, allowing you to see all those cool things without all that wasted time - basically, you get the fun stuff. You still get the challenge, because everything can be balanced for a single character level - 20 (basically, levels 1-20 are all 'tutorial' missions to get you up to speed). However, you get to do ALL the quests at any time. You can go to all the different areas, after you find them. Exploration actually has meaning, as opposed to a traditional MMORPG where a different area, besides nifty new creature models (sometimes), is just another monster killing ground for higher level players. It's the same amount of content as those games - but with a completely different psychological impact. Rather than pointlessly grinding away for hours, your actions seem to have MEANING because you are doing them for your own reasons. I'm almost positive that they hired a psychologist or two on the team to create guild wars, or perhaps these things were so obvious that it's just amazing no other company has tried it until now. Regardless, it will be interesting to see Guild Wars - and its successors - and see how well they fare as the next generation of the online interactive roleplaying game.

Apr 27, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56	#12
butcherboy Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Apr 2005	Fundamentally speaking the game does begin at level 20, as stated but I saw no mention of skills. Despite not leveling stat wise (Attributes) past level 20, your character can gain new skills and skill points by fighting PvE and skill points from fighting PvP. Some quests reward characters with new skills in addition or supposition of shiny new killing/saving toys. Of course, this is based on what I've read as I won't be able to do squat with the game until tonight after I finish my 2nd job.

Apr 27, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21	#13
Rizzen Khalazar Krytan Explorer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Salt Lake City	Try out the game before judging it. The game is definately different, and you also must remember that it will not appeal to everyone.

Apr 27, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49	#14
Auntie I Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2005 Guild: Veritas Invictus Profession: E/Me	In my experience playing the betas, you will hit level 20 before you finish all of the major missions/quests. Trust me they don't get any easier just because you've hit the magical 2 0. I think the best way to look at it is that the level cap really hasn't got a large impact on the PvE. Except in the beginning when that 20 extra health/mana really does mean a big boost of course.